Transkripta e plotë në anglisht e intervistës së kryeministrint Kurti për BBC Hard Talks me gazetarin Stephen Sackur
BBC: Welcome to Hard Talk from the BBC World Service with me Stephen Stephen Sackur. Today I’m in Pristina capital of Kosovo the small nation in the heart of the Balkans which declared its independence some 15 years ago. Kosovo’s independence statehood is not recognised in neighbouring Serbia which still regards the territory as rightfully Serb, but more than 90% of kosovars are ethnic Albanians less than 5% are Serbs, and the NATO military intervention in 1999 put paid to Belgrade’s control of the territory. Recently tensions have spiraled both Serbs and kosovars accuse each other of bad faith and resorting to violence. Caught in the middle is a 3000 strong NATO peacekeeping force still based in Kosovo. Since the original NATO intervention the kosovan government has received strong support from Washington and Brussels but there are signs that Prime Minister Kurti’s uncompromising often controversial brand of nationalism is frustrating Kosovo’s allies. With the West preoccupied with war in Ukraine and desperate to avoid new conflict in the Balkans is Prime Minister Kurti playing a dangerous diplomatic game? Well he joins me now, welcome to Hard Talk.
Prime Minister Kurti: Welcome to Pristina and thank you for having me.
BBC: Well it’s a great pleasure to be in your office Mr. Prime Minister. How close has Kosovo come to seeing a renewal of conflict in the last few months.
Prime Minister Kurti: It has been very heavy because the two extremist terrorist organisations which are being financed by Serbia and from where they also receive their orders, “Civil Protection” and the “Northern Brigade” have been very active in first intimidating Serbs and Serbian candidates who would like to vote and run in elections and 2nd in attacking our police, journalists but first and foremost NATO soldiers on 29th of may.
BBC: You’ve chosen in that answer to pile all of the blame on your Serbian minority population that is not the way the international community sees things right now.
Prime Minister Kurti: I never blame Serbian minority population there are 4% of population in Kosovo but I was blaming two specific organisations and also Belgrade who is controlling them.
BBC: the EU envoy responsible for trying to normalise the situation here in Kosovo, Miroslav Lajcak he had a discussion with you just a couple of days ago and he stressed to you the urgent need for de-escalation. Are you prepared to take actions to deescalate the tension?
Prime Minister Kurti: of course and I have offered to have early elections in the four northern municipalities as soon as possible. We have to have a rule of law in place so we have a fair and open campaign prior to free and democratic elections.
BBC: The United States and your European allies, certainly the United Kingdom, asked you not to do that you didn’t seek their advice you just did it. Why?
Prime Minister Kurti: on the 23rd of June, the minister of Internal Affairs, Xhelal Sveçla, together with our director of police Gazmend Hoxha, they had a press conference where they have exposed all the ammunition and armament including rocket launchers that they have confiscated in a car with Belgrade car plates belonging to this “Severna Brigada”/”Northern Brigade” but which actually was also belonging to the Serbia railways, a publicly owned enterprise in Serbia. At that press conference minister of Internal Affairs announced that he’s going to ask from the government to declare this organisation terrorist organisations. If I wouldn’t have done so I would violate my law and I would have to neglect the data from our security sector and intelligence.
BBC: I asked you specifically about your cooperation and coordination with the United States and European allies. The US state department criticised your move to label these groups as terror organisations. The state department said the decision should have been coordinated with the closest international partners of Kosovo including those with prime responsibility to ensure stability in Kosovo. We, said the US state department, again call on Kosovo to refrain from unilateral moves. Why are you ignoring your friends in the United States?
Prime Minister Kurti: we are regularly communicate and coordinate with both EU and US, but then I have to respect and to apply constitutionality and legal order and lawfulness of Republic of Kosova. I am Prime Minister of Kosova because Kosova is a Republic. Five days before making this decision with which we declare these two organisations terrorist organisation they were notified about what we’re going to do. So we do coordinate. This does not mean that we agree all of the time on all issues.
BBC: the Serbs say that you’re operating paramilitary police forces in those ethnic Serb towns at least four of them in the north of your country and they say they have clear evidence of and I’m quoting now from the Serbian press beating and torturing of ethnic Serbs in their home communities they name individuals like Nenad Orlovic who has been pictured with his head in a bag bare chested. He has been beaten. These are pictures which the Serbs say were circulated within the Kosovo police force bragging about the abuse of ethnic Serbs. What are you doing about that?
Prime Minister Kurti: out of a dozen of these violent extremists which have been arrested there has been one case of misconduct of a policeman who has been immediately suspended but otherwise on all other allegations my Minister of Justice and minister of Internal Affairs have sent letters to Mr. Borrell, practically the EU foreign minister that whatever we did was fully in compliance with procedures and law of crossover and he has been convinced to this.
BBC: you say the situation right now in the north of your country is, to use your word at the beginning of this interview very heavy, the Serb side led of course by president Alexander Vucic says and I’m quoting him “we are at a crossroads whether we will have peace or not and there is only one man in the Balkans who wants to incite conflict that is Albin Kurti”.
Prime Minister Kurti: well he attacks me every day sometimes several times per day but Kosova is a democratic country, pro western oriented. According to Transparency International, to Freedom House, World Justice Project, V-Dem electoral democracy, according to Reporters Without Borders, Kosova is a democratic country whereas Serbia is hybrid regime or other authoritarian one. So we are pro EU pro NATO and pro US. Serbia is very much aligned with Kremlin. He is saying these but that’s simply false allegations against me.
BBC: my point I guess throughout this interview so far has been that the EU, the US and your closest friends are telling you that you need to take actions to deescalate the situation and the one thing more than any other that they want you to do is to deliver on the promise that Kosovo made some 10 years ago to allow the ethnic Serb population in your country to create this association of Serbian municipalities which could represent their interests in this country. Your country made the promise 10 years ago. You refuse to deliver on it. Why?
Prime Minister Kurti: Belgrade wanted this association out of their policy for a territorial ethno-nationalism which resulted in Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is true that my predecessor 10 years ago signed such an agreement (Prime Minister Thaçi), and then this agreement was elaborated further by another Prime Minister, my predecessor as well (Prime Minister Mustafa), in 2015. But this agreement failed the test of Constitutional Court. Constitutional Court’s decision said that 23 articles of our constitution basically have been violated by this association of municipalities.
BBC: they are a tiny minority. why are you so frightened of them? You compare it to the situation in Bosnia with Republika Srpska but there the Serbs represent 30% of the population of Bosnia, here they represent 4 or 5%. So why are you so scared?
Prime Minister Kurti: we are not scared we are just vigilant because Belgrade is using them to not recognise Kosova and to seek division partition of Kosova.
BBC: are you right now prepared to talk to president Vucic of Serbia about all of this or not?
Prime Minister Kurti: of course I was in Brussels on 22nd of June but it was President Vucic who didn’t want to have a meeting. My constructiveness and my creativity has been shown throughout with different proposals. For example I proposed the model which is inspired by Serbs in Croatia. Serbia and Croatia have a normalisation agreement with the mechanism for protection of minority rights and Serbs are happy with that. I said let’s do it .
BBC: yeah but the problem is that your government in 2013 signed a document which made an explicit promise which you’re not prepared to keep. Does it worry you? Does it worry you that your best friends, your most important friends in the international community starting with the European Union think you have got this wrong and indeed they are so sure that you have got it wrong and that you need to change your mind that they’ve imposed sanctions on Kosovo right now.
Prime Minister Kurti: these sanctions have nothing to do with 2013 agreement because that agreement is part of 39 agreements which have been signed by my predecessors and which should be implemented if valid and binding according to Article 10 of Basic Treaty which I made with president Vucic in Brussels and then implementation annex in Ohrid. So you can you cannot with the cart before the horse now by picking and choosing this single agreement, which is part of 39 agreements.
BBC: so, Prime Minister, you say it’s not all about the agreement signed in 2013, you tell me then why are the member states of the EU, your friends, why are they imposing very serious sanctions on you right now?
Prime Minister Kurti: it has to do with the situation in the north where simply on one hand they don’t want to put proper names to specific events and things. For example three of our policemen have been abducted a month ago in territory of Kosova by Serbian special military and police units and they don’t call it the aggression of Serbia.
BBC: well the Serbs say they picked up those policemen inside Serbian territory.
Prime Minister Kurti: but that’s not true. I have offered tonnes of evidence. All my international partners and friends know that it has happened in Leposavic. In my view what they are trying to do is by being soft with Serbia to try to move it out from the influence of Kremlin and I think this policy did not work.
BBC: So you think this is all about Russia?
Prime Minister Kurti: I think it has a lot to do with Belgrade pushing in the direction of Brussels and Washington when actually Belgrade is so much linked with Kremlin. Historically, culturally but also in terms of military and energy.
BBC: so to get this straight you are accusing the EU of betraying their strong relationship with you because they’re trying to persuade president Vucic and the Serbs to move away from Putin and Russia? Is that it?
Prime Minister Kurti: I have no other explanation why they are tolerating so much. We as human beings are in search of meaning. I do not know how to explain to myself and to others how soft they are with Belgrade.
BBC: maybe you need to look at the diplomatic yeah picture. I mean I’ve read reports I’m sure you have too that significant amounts of Serbian ammunition for example manufactured in Serbia are going through third parties into Ukraine being used by Ukrainian forces. Now that matters to the United States and to Europe and maybe you have to accept that right now the diplomatic weather is changing and you are going to have to adapt to that too?
Prime Minister Kurti: well if an autocrat is friends with Putin, for changing that a democratic country like Kosova should not pay.
BBC: let’s be very blunt, do you feel you and your interests are being sacrificed because the West is so concerned about the war in Ukraine?
Prime Minister Kurti: I think they are so concerned about the possibility of spillover in the Balkans and that is real because of the link of Belgrade with Moscow but also they know that Serbian ruler in Belgrade is not a democrat and he has a lot of power and they never faced the past the crimes that they committed in the past. They consider their neighbours temporary states. For example Bosnia and Hercegovina, by Belgrade is de-jure recognised but de facto not. There is a lot of influence of Belgrade in Montenegro. So this kind of regional hegemonic power in direct link with Moscow is causing a lot of fear in the West and for which I believe the Republic of Kosova should not pay. Towards a democrat, I’m a social democrat. Towards an autocrat, I must be a sovereignist too. What we are doing in the north is the rule of law as sovereignty and sovereignty as the rule of law.
BBC: you are paying a price that’s the fact because EU sanctions imposed in the last few weeks. According to your own Alliance of Kosovar Businesses you are going to cost your country up to €500 million by the end of this year. You’re losing your access to infrastructure grants to other investments coming from Brussels. With your weak economy, you can’t afford to lose this financial and economic support. So what are you going to do?
Prime Minister Kurti: we have had the 7.35% of GDP as economic growth, averagely in these two years since I’m in power. Exports doubled in two years. FDI doubled in two years. Tax revenues increased by 2/3 and it’s such a shame now to put these sanctions upon Kosova.
BBC: your own business community says Albin Kurti must come to his senses.
Prime Minister Kurti: I’m doing my best but I cannot surrender a Democratic Republic to this fascist militia in the north.
BBC: Bill Clinton just the other day made a speech in Tirana where he said it is time for the Albanians and he meant the Albanians in Kosovo because he was talking about the Kosovo crisis, who are now in the majority, they must stop this foolishness, he said what major political issue can possibly be advanced by arguing about how four little towns are run. Clinton says, stop the foolishness. Are you prepared to?
Prime Minister Kurti: well I’m not being a fool but I’m neither being fooled. I’m Prime Minister of a Democratic Republic. Rule of law. The most democratic country has the most professional police and we are very thankful for the contribution of President Clinton who actually in Tirana said that Serbs should have not boycotted the elections, they should have voted and this is the root cause; the lack of participation in democratic process, low turnout and hollow legitimacy. I recognise early elections, this much I can do, and article 72 on local self-government says that with 20% of electoral body in a municipality they can start a process to turn to trigger early elections. Let’s do that. I’m gonna help. You cannot from the streets with militia get into mayor’s office, only through democratic.
BBC: right but you know the Serbs aren’t going to go back into the municipal offices. They’re not going to agree to participate in new elections unless you make a promise to give them this autonomous association of Serb communities. If you won’t give them that then even if you have new elections in those communities the Serbs won’t take part. So you’re not really achieving anything. Do you have a solution which might solve this problem?
Prime Minister Kurti: I have offered again a model which Serbia already accepted with Croatia. Croatia is a success story with you and NATO members.
BBC: with respect, the Serbs in your country are not interested in what happened in Croatia. What they want is the delivery on a promise made to them in 2013.
Prime Minister Kurti: in these 15 years since we declared independence average annual budget allocated per municipality per capita is 62% higher for Serb majority municipalities than for the rest. We have been privileging them all of the time. The problem is not to satisfy Serbs. The problem is that I cannot satisfy Belgrade for the losses caused to Serbia as a state by a genocidal regime of Milosevic. This is the problem. The problem is in Belgrade, not among Serbian community. People are generally good and peaceful everywhere. I believe in people, but you have autocrats who destroy this goodness.
BBC: Prime Minister it’s not just about your foreign partners who are worried and frustrated with you right now also many people here in Kosovo are worried. One of the leaders of the opposition Democratic Party Memli Krasniqi, he said you are playing with fire and many kosovans are very aware of your track record. You’re a hot headed politician. In different parts of your career you’ve spent time in prison for political protests, you released tear gas inside the kosovan parliament back in 2015, you even injured yourself I think. In 2018 you were found guilty of the illegal use of weapons and obstructing officials doing their duties. You’re known as an impulsive hot headed nationalist politician. You may push this too far.
Prime Minister Kurti: over a glass of wine or the two of us can discuss long about my political activism and my experience in the past as opposition leader and so on and so forth but this is not about me and I’m not alone. Vast majority of people of Kosova think that we should not give up on the rule of law. I am Prime Minister also of Serbs. I have a Serbian minister, Nenad Rashic. Three municipalities in the north have Serbian deputy mayors: Dragana Miletic in Leposavic, Katarina Adjancic in North Mitrovica and Sladjana Pantovic in Zvecan. I collaborate with Serbs but Serbs who vucic is paying to sabotage state of Kosova or a very peculiar kind. These are the privileged minority within Serbian minority I’m not going to give up to them.
BBC: the problem is and I’m looking at that document there the original document Declaration of Independence of Kosovo in 2008. Since then what really has Kosovo achieved? You haven’t normalised relations with Serbia. You have the recognition of more than 100 countries but significant countries like Russia and China even five members of the European Union still do not recognise Kosovo. Your economy is in a terrible mess. Hundreds of thousands of your own people have left Kosovo to go find work in the European Union. Can you honestly say somewhat 15 years after that document was signed that you are delivering?
Prime Minister Kurti: yes we are a success story of NATO intervention to stop genocide of Serbia and we are a success story of democratic and economic progress working hand in hand. All the seven members of G7 group recognise Kosova. We have 117 recognitions and we are going to continue. Kosova is here to stay and I’m here to serve. I understand politics as public service to the people and I’m democratically elected two years ago with a landslide victory, the biggest transformation of government in Kosova since we declared independence. And I’m with full optimism that we are going to succeed. This is making nervous both Belgrade and Moscow and that’s why their nervousness is turning into violence in the northern part of my country. But we are going to prevail this time as well.
BBC: and the final very brief thought, can you guarantee to me that there will not be renewal of conflict of war in the Balkans over Kosovo?
Prime Minister Kurti: you have my guarantee that government of Kosova by no means will contribute to escalation will do everything for de-escalation. I offered to sign the basic treaty for normalisation, Belgrade refused. So you have my good will, good faith and good intentions, and I am the guarantee that both EU and the US as values and strategic interest will be nurtured and prevail in my country.
BBC: Prime Minister Kurti, it’s been a pleasure to talk to you thank you very much indeed.
Last modified: July 12, 2023